Ford catch can update. First check on cans

Roughstock

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Hi Everyone,

I checked my Ford Catch Cans the other day after an oil change. Not entirely sure how many miles I put on before the check since it was between oil changes and I did not note how many miles when I put them in. I thought I reset Trip 1 or 2 but it didn't look like I did. I will recheck tomorrow. I would guess about 2500 miles.

There was nothing in the drivers side can - bone dry. The passenger can has some oil. A very small bit on the on bottom of the can.

You can see here with the tow pics.
IMG_4200.jpeg


IMG_4202.jpeg



I am happy I put them in. I will have a better report at my next oil change. I will be putting engine through its paces before then for sure.
 
Hi Everyone,

I checked my Ford Catch Cans the other day after an oil change. Not entirely sure how many miles I put on before the check since it was between oil changes and I did not note how many miles when I put them in. I thought I reset Trip 1 or 2 but it didn't look like I did. I will recheck tomorrow. I would guess about 2500 miles.

There was nothing in the drivers side can - bone dry. The passenger can has some oil. A very small bit on the on bottom of the can.

You can see here with the tow pics.View attachment 14658

View attachment 14659


I am happy I put them in. I will have a better report at my next oil change. I will be putting engine through its paces before then for sure.
I think your findings of the passenger side canister with some oil collection, while the drivers side has none, is as expected and normal for 2500 street miles. The passenger side canister outlet air tube connects to the intake manifold behind the throttle body, which is post both turbo's therefore maximum boost. The drivers side outlet air tube connects to the drivers side intake tube pre turbo therefore has less vacumn pulling the air/oil mixture through the drivers side separator canister. I'm guessing this may be why the aftermarket single valve units are all separating air/oil from passenger side only. With usage in the higher RPM's the drivers side canister should have oil collection but may still be less than the passenger side. So the passenger side is primarily avoiding oil/carbon collection on the intake valves while the drivers side is preventing oil collection on the drivers side turbo vanes, intercooler and the also the intake valves however it's also a lesser air volume. This is how our engines were engineered/designed as the canisters simply insert into the existing valve cover breather air flow to separate the hot oil evaporating mist from the air.
 
I think your findings of the passenger side canister with some oil collection, while the drivers side has none, is as expected and normal for 2500 street miles. The passenger side canister outlet air tube connects to the intake manifold behind the throttle body, which is post both turbo's therefore maximum boost. The drivers side outlet air tube connects to the drivers side intake tube pre turbo therefore has less vacumn pulling the air/oil mixture through the drivers side separator canister. I'm guessing this may be why the aftermarket single valve units are all separating air/oil from passenger side only. With usage in the higher RPM's the drivers side canister should have oil collection but may still be less than the passenger side. So the passenger side is primarily avoiding oil/carbon collection on the intake valves while the drivers side is preventing oil collection on the drivers side turbo vanes, intercooler and the also the intake valves however it's also a lesser air volume. This is how our engines were engineered/designed as the canisters simply insert into the existing valve cover breather air flow to separate the hot oil evaporating mist from the air.
Thank you for your concise explanation. This helps a lot to understand what's going on. Appreciated.

I also checked my trip gauge. It seems 1700 miles is probably more accurate than 2500 miles. My trip 1 was about 1750 miles and trip 2 was about 1650. I remember resetting a trip. Don't know why I didn't see this the other day. So 1700 miles is probably more accurate than 2500 miles.
 
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Air/oil separators cannot hurt but they will not prevent, or even significantly lessen, carbon buildup on the intake valves. Almost all of the deposits are created during valve overlap events, where partially burned, hot hydrocarbons are deposited onto cooler intake valves through intake reversion and a condensation process.

The only way to keep the valves clean is to spray fuel with a detergent package onto the stem and back of the valves. Methanol doesn't work, water doesn't work.

Forced induction engines tend to have less carbon buildup since there's less reversion due to the intake side being positively charged. So basically drive it hard and you'll have less carbon buildup. Drive lightly with the engine producing vacuum, more carbon buildup. Hopefully gas prices drop!

It'll be interesting to see how bad a Raptor motor is after say 60K miles. I manually cleaned (walnut blast) my last DI car which had a naturally-aspirated V8 engine that revved to 8800 rpm. It'd lose 20hp peak, and more torque, after about 50K miles and the valves looked pretty nasty. But again, with forced induction, it won't be nearly as bad.

If the Raptor had been naturally aspirated and DI, honestly, I wouldn't have bought it. Been there done that and it's a PITA. I have the FSM but haven't dived into it yet to see how challenging it is getting the intake manifold off to inspect the valves. Assuming Ford doesn't specify any cleaning unless an issue can be directly attributed to carbon buildup. That likely won't happen within the normal warranty period or even before 100K miles.
 
Air/oil separators cannot hurt but they will not prevent, or even significantly lessen, carbon buildup on the intake valves. Almost all of the deposits are created during valve overlap events, where partially burned, hot hydrocarbons are deposited onto cooler intake valves through intake reversion and a condensation process.

The only way to keep the valves clean is to spray fuel with a detergent package onto the stem and back of the valves. Methanol doesn't work, water doesn't work.

Forced induction engines tend to have less carbon buildup since there's less reversion due to the intake side being positively charged. So basically drive it hard and you'll have less carbon buildup. Drive lightly with the engine producing vacuum, more carbon buildup. Hopefully gas prices drop!

It'll be interesting to see how bad a Raptor motor is after say 60K miles. I manually cleaned (walnut blast) my last DI car which had a naturally-aspirated V8 engine that revved to 8800 rpm. It'd lose 20hp peak, and more torque, after about 50K miles and the valves looked pretty nasty. But again, with forced induction, it won't be nearly as bad.

If the Raptor had been naturally aspirated and DI, honestly, I wouldn't have bought it. Been there done that and it's a PITA. I have the FSM but haven't dived into it yet to see how challenging it is getting the intake manifold off to inspect the valves. Assuming Ford doesn't specify any cleaning unless an issue can be directly attributed to carbon buildup. That likely won't happen within the normal warranty period or even before 100K miles.
You may have already viewed this video, if not it's a great explanation and demo of this issue. Unfortunately, Turbos can make the situation worse as they age.

 
You may have already viewed this video, if not it's a great explanation and demo of this issue. Unfortunately, Turbos can make the situation worse as they age.

That is a great video, good to watch again. Thanks
 
Haven't watched it but yeah, as the bearings and then seals in the CRHA wear, they can leak oil into the compressor and/or turbine side. It usually collects in the intercooler, especially front mount air to air IC's like we have. Probably a good practice to clean out the IC every 30K miles. Some of it does make it into the combustion chamber but again, the amount of actual carbon it creates from turning into volatiles and unburned hydrocarbons is relatively minuscule.

But if it were a major issue, Ford would have installed an air/oil separator from the factory. Then again, their only real intention is to make it past the warranty finish line.

I've owned more than a few turbo vehicles in my lifetime, have even designed a few turbo systems and even though I'm mechanically inclined, I bought an extended warranty as I know it's unlikely both turbos will make it past 100K. I'm at 14K and I can already smell oil when the car idles for a bit. I just don't trust the 3.0L's design/complexity but I suppose I should do a bit more research. Kinda sucks as I'm a modaholic, like I have it really, really bad , but I have to stay the course due to the extended warranty.
 
Ok so I just watched a bit of the video and just a few thoughts. He's mistaken on compressor blow-by being the main source of carbon buildup. Companies (who aren't trying to sell you catch cans) have done extended tests and have seen no effective change in carbon buildup long term. I am the owner of a performance-oriented automotive company and many of the vehicles I cater to are DI motors. I could easily make catch can systems for any of them but it's disingenuous. I will occasionally whittle something up for a customer who insists.

Air/oil separators are there to reduce emissions, plain and simple. Back in the day, cranks and cylinder heads all vented to atmosphere. There are hp/efficiency gains to be had in creating negative crank case pressure.

What I usually recommend is more frequent oil changes (every 5K) and DO NOT let your car sit and warm up (remote start is really, really bad but yes, I still use it on occasion). Get in, start the car, drive as soon as you're able. This'll warm up the internals more quickly than idling and the piston rings will expand and start sealing sooner. This prevents volatiles (gas) from diluting your oil via blowby past piston rings that haven't fully expanded thermally creating a better seal between it and the cylinder wall. Those vapors get recycled via the PCV and don't collect in a catch can as its method of operation is condensation.

In order to consensate, there must be enough of a temp differential for it to occur (aka partially burned hot hydrocarbons hitting a "cool" intake valve). Those volatiles remained only partially burned as they're not processed to the extent that gas is and don't burn as efficiently. When both the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time, however briefly, reversion occurs where the charge or burned gasses momentarily reverse flow due to pressure changes from positive to negative vacuum, forcing the gasses into the intake port. This is why positive pressure, created by the turbos, lessens carbon buildup as it's restricting reversion of combustion gasses.

Unfortunately the Braptor hasn't been out long for owners to experiment and I'm not aware of any long-term studies done on the 3.0L Ecoboost. I'd be open to reading any info though, just not from some guy projecting animation onto a wall. I will say it's a good overview of DI vs. port injection although it's pretty basic. There are big performance advantages to DI on both n/an and turbo motors. And many Toyotas use a throttle body injector, and not multi-port, to keep the valves clean. They've been doing it since the start of DI motors. No idea why Ford chose to forego a port or throttle body injector.

Understand that just because you're emptying a catch can that's full of oil, doesn't mean that oil is depositing on your intake valves and causing carbon buildup in the same ratio. Yes, a very, very small amount is in fact causing carbon buildup but if you were to install 20 catch cans, 10 on either bank, you'd still have carbon build up on the intake valves.

I know what you're thinking...what about the exhaust valves? After all, they're bathed in the exhaust gasses each combustion cycle. Well, they're almost as hot as the combustion chamber and thus, no condensation. Additionally, getting things hot, you can actually burn off the carbon. Take your DI motor out on the Autobahn and run it at top speed for two hours straight. Your intake valves will be as clean as a whistle!
 
Ok so I just watched a bit of the video and just a few thoughts. He's mistaken on compressor blow-by being the main source of carbon buildup. Companies (who aren't trying to sell you catch cans) have done extended tests and have seen no effective change in carbon buildup long term. I am the owner of a performance-oriented automotive company and many of the vehicles I cater to are DI motors. I could easily make catch can systems for any of them but it's disingenuous. I will occasionally whittle something up for a customer who insists.

Air/oil separators are there to reduce emissions, plain and simple. Back in the day, cranks and cylinder heads all vented to atmosphere. There are hp/efficiency gains to be had in creating negative crank case pressure.

What I usually recommend is more frequent oil changes (every 5K) and DO NOT let your car sit and warm up (remote start is really, really bad but yes, I still use it on occasion). Get in, start the car, drive as soon as you're able. This'll warm up the internals more quickly than idling and the piston rings will expand and start sealing sooner. This prevents volatiles (gas) from diluting your oil via blowby past piston rings that haven't fully expanded thermally creating a better seal between it and the cylinder wall. Those vapors get recycled via the PCV and don't collect in a catch can as its method of operation is condensation.

In order to consensate, there must be enough of a temp differential for it to occur (aka partially burned hot hydrocarbons hitting a "cool" intake valve). Those volatiles remained only partially burned as they're not processed to the extent that gas is and don't burn as efficiently. When both the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time, however briefly, reversion occurs where the charge or burned gasses momentarily reverse flow due to pressure changes from positive to negative vacuum, forcing the gasses into the intake port. This is why positive pressure, created by the turbos, lessens carbon buildup as it's restricting reversion of combustion gasses.

Unfortunately the Braptor hasn't been out long for owners to experiment and I'm not aware of any long-term studies done on the 3.0L Ecoboost. I'd be open to reading any info though, just not from some guy projecting animation onto a wall. I will say it's a good overview of DI vs. port injection although it's pretty basic. There are big performance advantages to DI on both n/an and turbo motors. And many Toyotas use a throttle body injector, and not multi-port, to keep the valves clean. They've been doing it since the start of DI motors. No idea why Ford chose to forego a port or throttle body injector.

Understand that just because you're emptying a catch can that's full of oil, doesn't mean that oil is depositing on your intake valves and causing carbon buildup in the same ratio. Yes, a very, very small amount is in fact causing carbon buildup but if you were to install 20 catch cans, 10 on either bank, you'd still have carbon build up on the intake valves.

I know what you're thinking...what about the exhaust valves? After all, they're bathed in the exhaust gasses each combustion cycle. Well, they're almost as hot as the combustion chamber and thus, no condensation. Additionally, getting things hot, you can actually burn off the carbon. Take your DI motor out on the Autobahn and run it at top speed for two hours straight. Your intake valves will be as clean as a whistle!
So you are saying Ford Performance is selling me catch cans so I can reduce my emissions? Really? Ford Performance does not mention this. Are they lying to us?

Help protect your Bronco Raptor 3.0L engine with the dual air/oil separator from Ford Performance Parts. This is a must have for any serious off-road enthusiast!

  • Fits 2022-2024 Bronco Raptor
  • Dual system with left and right canisters, brackets, and hoses
  • Precision molded canisters with unique filter media separates oil vapor from the air in the PCV system to help keep oil out of the intake
  • Designed and engineered specifically to fit the Bronco Raptor 3.0L engine
  • OEM quality hoses and fittings for high quality installation and function
  • This is a highly engineered system designed specifically for your vehicle - not a universal kit - by the engineers that know your Bronco and 3.0L engine
  • Canister is easy to drain by removing the PCV hoses from canister, removing canister, and draining oil
  • Engineered and manufactured in the USA
 
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So you are saying Ford Performance is selling me catch cans so I can reduce my emissions? Really? Ford Performance does not mention this. Are they lying to me?

Help protect your Bronco Raptor 3.0L engine with the dual air/oil separator from Ford Performance Parts. This is a must have for any serious off-road enthusiast!

  • Fits 2022-2024 Bronco Raptor
  • Dual system with left and right canisters, brackets, and hoses
  • Precision molded canisters with unique filter media separates oil vapor from the air in the PCV system to help keep oil out of the intake
  • Designed and engineered specifically to fit the Bronco Raptor 3.0L engine
  • OEM quality hoses and fittings for high quality installation and function
  • This is a highly engineered system designed specifically for your vehicle - not a universal kit - by the engineers that know your Bronco and 3.0L engine
  • Canister is easy to drain by removing the PCV hoses from canister, removing canister, and draining oil
  • Engineered and manufactured in the USA

I never said that. Ford is selling it to make money.
 
I never said that. Ford is selling it to make money.
I understand Ford is selling catch cans to make money; however, if the only thing they do is reduce emissions, then they are lying to us.

If all they do is reduce emissions I would not have bought them.
 
Air/oil separators cannot hurt but they will not prevent, or even significantly lessen, carbon buildup on the intake valves. Almost all of the deposits are created during valve overlap events, where partially burned, hot hydrocarbons are deposited onto cooler intake valves through intake reversion and a condensation process.

The only way to keep the valves clean is to spray fuel with a detergent package onto the stem and back of the valves. Methanol doesn't work, water doesn't work.

Forced induction engines tend to have less carbon buildup since there's less reversion due to the intake side being positively charged. So basically drive it hard and you'll have less carbon buildup. Drive lightly with the engine producing vacuum, more carbon buildup. Hopefully gas prices drop!

It'll be interesting to see how bad a Raptor motor is after say 60K miles. I manually cleaned (walnut blast) my last DI car which had a naturally-aspirated V8 engine that revved to 8800 rpm. It'd lose 20hp peak, and more torque, after about 50K miles and the valves looked pretty nasty. But again, with forced induction, it won't be nearly as bad.

If the Raptor had been naturally aspirated and DI, honestly, I wouldn't have bought it. Been there done that and it's a PITA. I have the FSM but haven't dived into it yet to see how challenging it is getting the intake manifold off to inspect the valves. Assuming Ford doesn't specify any cleaning unless an issue can be directly attributed to carbon buildup. That likely won't happen within the normal warranty period or even before 100K miles.
Your posts in this thread are the best I've seen on the matter. Thanks for the quality insight!
 
Hi Everyone,

I checked my Ford Catch Cans the other day after an oil change. Not entirely sure how many miles I put on before the check since it was between oil changes and I did not note how many miles when I put them in. I thought I reset Trip 1 or 2 but it didn't look like I did. I will recheck tomorrow. I would guess about 2500 miles.

There was nothing in the drivers side can - bone dry. The passenger can has some oil. A very small bit on the on bottom of the can.

You can see here with the tow pics.View attachment 14658

View attachment 14659


I am happy I put them in. I will have a better report at my next oil change. I will be putting engine through its paces before then for sure.
Mine for like 5000 miles never had any oil in them until this past weekend I took my first highway trip to austin. At highway speeds I noticed the Raptor runs much warmer than I like, oil reaching 218F. I also noticed the passenger side catch can rubbed paint and a bit of material off the hood. I tried cutting down on the perch, then the edges of perch and lastly the hole on the canister that accept the metal bracket/perch and still not lowering it enough. Seems the accepting holes while they look deep are not so my next attempt to correct this over site is to either remove about 3/8ths from bracket and reweld it or remove it from the top of cannister. Lots of folks do not understand what a catch can does and being the Raptor is not multiport but direct only this will surely help from oil degrading in the plenum and that same oil vapor turning to carbon on your intake valves. I've added catch cans on everything from jet boat engines, to my shelby, skipping the C8 because it is a dry sump which basically recycles all vapors back into crankcase.
 

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90% of carbon buildup comes from unburned hydrocarbons and intake reversion during valve overlap. Boosted engines typically have about 1/3 the buildup over time of a naturally aspirated direct injected motor. The catch can does not make a significant difference long-term.
 
90% of carbon buildup comes from unburned hydrocarbons and intake reversion during valve overlap. Boosted engines typically have about 1/3 the buildup over time of a naturally aspirated direct injected motor. The catch can does not make a significant difference long-term.
I'm not sure of the cam profile on the raptors to be honest but turbo engines usually have very low or negative over lap. Far as top side of valves that is directly where PCV is creating the scenario for deposits to form or in my case catch cans can help or hinder in the case of PVC. Of course you won't catch 100% but it mechanically works by condensing it within the can instead of going through the intake, wouldnt be half interested in it if the raptor were multi but they're direct injection only.
 
Mine for like 5000 miles never had any oil in them until this past weekend I took my first highway trip to austin. At highway speeds I noticed the Raptor runs much warmer than I like, oil reaching 218F. I also noticed the passenger side catch can rubbed paint and a bit of material off the hood. I tried cutting down on the perch, then the edges of perch and lastly the hole on the canister that accept the metal bracket/perch and still not lowering it enough. Seems the accepting holes while they look deep are not so my next attempt to correct this over site is to either remove about 3/8ths from bracket and reweld it or remove it from the top of cannister. Lots of folks do not understand what a catch can does and being the Raptor is not multiport but direct only this will surely help from oil degrading in the plenum and that same oil vapor turning to carbon on your intake valves. I've added catch cans on everything from jet boat engines, to my shelby, skipping the C8 because it is a dry sump which basically recycles all vapors back into crankcase.
See this thread below to the end, Ford Performance is aware of the issue and in process of releasing a new air/oil separator system for our Bronco Raptors.

 
I'm not sure of the cam profile on the raptors to be honest but turbo engines usually have very low or negative over lap. Far as top side of valves that is directly where PCV is creating the scenario for deposits to form or in my case catch cans can help or hinder in the case of PVC. Of course you won't catch 100% but it mechanically works by condensing it within the can instead of going through the intake, wouldnt be half interested in it if the raptor were multi but they're direct injection only.

They still have overlap but when under boost, there's far less intake charge reversion hence less buildup over time. And true, the cam timing probably lessens it as well but with variable cams, that isn't always the case. I've done long-term testing on DI engines with and without catch can systems. Many modern DI vehicles have air/oil separators built-in to various engine/crank vent systems that aren't necessarily external like a catch can. This is for consumption and not carbon buildup. Oil doesn't really burn easily where fuel obviously does. The temp differential between the partially burned hydrocarbons and the intake valves is what causes the hard but sticky buildup over time.

I've done carbon cleaning on DI engines and it isn't fun. I told myself I'd never buy another DI engine that didn't have port or throttle body injection (which I failed at, miserably). I guess I'll be doing some walnut blasting in a few years, LOL. If I had to guess, I think most people won't even look at carbon cleaning until 100K miles. Time will tell but the harder you drive it, the better it'll be in terms of carbon buildup.

I will say it can't hurt to have a properly engineered catch can setup. Might help some of the intake sensors stay a bit cleaner or even warn you of a possible issue with the CHRA seal if one or both of the turbos start pushing oil out the compressor side.
 
They still have overlap but when under boost, there's far less intake charge reversion hence less buildup over time. And true, the cam timing probably lessens it as well but with variable cams, that isn't always the case. I've done long-term testing on DI engines with and without catch can systems. Many modern DI vehicles have air/oil separators built-in to various engine/crank vent systems that aren't necessarily external like a catch can. This is for consumption and not carbon buildup. Oil doesn't really burn easily where fuel obviously does. The temp differential between the partially burned hydrocarbons and the intake valves is what causes the hard but sticky buildup over time.

I've done carbon cleaning on DI engines and it isn't fun. I told myself I'd never buy another DI engine that didn't have port or throttle body injection (which I failed at, miserably). I guess I'll be doing some walnut blasting in a few years, LOL. If I had to guess, I think most people won't even look at carbon cleaning until 100K miles. Time will tell but the harder you drive it, the better it'll be in terms of carbon buildup.

I will say it can't hurt to have a properly engineered catch can setup. Might help some of the intake sensors stay a bit cleaner or even warn you of a possible issue with the CHRA seal if one or both of the turbos start pushing oil out the compressor side.
Yeah the cans are just to help, nothing outside of dry sump or more oil changes will really solve it, or never abuse it. Fords 10,000 interval is not something I'm even going to get near, I'm doing them every 3-4000mi since i bought it. As far as the phasers sure theres going to be some over lap for your regular driving or towing around but surely when wot or running it rough there will be none. I really no clue and haven't looked into it but I figure under heavy load and being a turbo your defeating the purpose with overlap. I actually keep the manifold pressure up on my cluster, doesnt take much pedal to start going from atmosphere to pressure but no idea where/when phasers are correcting. The FP catch can are quality, none of the brillo pad mess to condense the vapors but a very fine layered mesh.
 
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