Cam Phaser Rattle

[Obiwan]

Damn, well keep us posted on how it unfolds.

 

[TurboS]

Damn, well keep us posted on how it unfolds.

Welcome to BroncoRaptor.com! 🍻 Agreed, this is a little worrisome for the rest of us.

 

[Obiwan]

Welcome to BroncoRaptor.com! 🍻 Agreed, this is a little worrisome for the rest of us.

Thanks,

Been following this for a bit on another forum. Glad to be here and hope to be able to contribute where possible.

 

[erjdrvr]

In researching this problem, have you come across the root cause?

Root cause I believe as the Tech noted....

"FOUND THAT INTAKE CAMSHAFT ROTATE INDEPENDENTLY FROM SPROCKET ON BOTH DIRECTION (NOT LOCKING ON PLACE ).COMPARE TO EXHAUST VCT IS LOCK AND NOT ROTATE."

Normally the cam & VCT phaser should lock and not move when the engine is shut down. I believe starting the engine when the cam is not locked is what causes the diesel sound.

 

[ChiliPepper]

Root cause I believe as the Tech noted....

"FOUND THAT INTAKE CAMSHAFT ROTATE INDEPENDENTLY FROM SPROCKET ON BOTH DIRECTION (NOT LOCKING ON PLACE ).COMPARE TO EXHAUST VCT IS LOCK AND NOT ROTATE."

Normally the cam & VCT phaser should lock and not move when the engine is shut down. I believe starting the engine when the cam is not locked is what causes the diesel sound.

That is a symptom.
Why is it not locking?

 

[erjdrvr]

That is a symptom.
Why is it not locking?

It's broken, defective, not locking properly. Doubt the Tech will have any info on why the parts failed. That's up to Ford engineers to figure out.

We'll have to wait for Tye to get the final repair invoice & parts list. But the Tech was following his WSM which should tell him what parts to replace. At a minimum he'll replace the phasers on the intake side.

 

[Tye]

I asked the tech more about why its not locking, and there really isn't an answer: THE SPROCKETTS ARE SUPPOSED TO LOCK IN PLACE BY LOCKING PINS DURING START UP UNTIL OIL PRESSURE HAS BUILT UP. WE WILL BE INSTALLING NEW PARTS TO PREVENT THE NOISE ISSUE, DONT KNOW WHY , BUT FORD WILL BE SENDING A NEW PART.

 

[ChiliPepper]

Example Root Cause analysis:
Problem: Cam Phaser Rattle

Q1: Why does cam phaser rattle?
A1: Intake cam shaft not locking in place

Q2: Why does intake cam shaft not lock in place?
A2: Locking pins missing from cam phaser

Q3: Why are locking pins missing from cam phaser?
A3: Components in question came from a second source supplier

Q4: Why are locking pins missing from a second source supplier?
A4: Second source supplier unable to procure certified locking pins

Q5: Why is supplier unable to procure certified locking pins?
A5: Locking pin supplier has material issues and pins do not meet strength and sheer requirements

Q6: Why do pins do not meet strength and sheer requirements?
A6: Forger used a cheap batch of raw materials for forgings to save manufacturing cost and increase profits

Root Cause: Supply chain issues created by 3rd tier supplier using inferior materials. Secondary cause: production schedule pressure at all levels of supply chain.

​

 

[erjdrvr]

Example Root Cause analysis:
Problem: Cam Phaser Rattle

Q1: Why does cam phaser rattle?
A1: Intake cam shaft not locking in place

Q2: Why does intake cam shaft not lock in place?
A2: Locking pins missing from cam phaser

Q3: Why are locking pins missing from cam phaser?
A3: Components in question came from a second source supplier

Q4: Why are locking pins missing from a second source supplier?
A4: Second source supplier unable to procure certified locking pins

Q5: Why is supplier unable to procure certified locking pins?
A5: Locking pin supplier has material issues and pins do not meet strength and sheer requirements

Q6: Why do pins do not meet strength and sheer requirements?
A6: Forger used a cheap batch of raw materials for forgings to save manufacturing cost and increase profits

Root Cause: Supply chain issues created by 3rd tier supplier using inferior materials. Secondary cause: production schedule pressure at all levels of supply chain.

​

I understand your presenting an example analysis, but I think it should be mentioned that it is highly improbable that the "locking pins" were missing from the supplier. If they were missing the engine would have rattled the first time it was started at the factory.

 

[erjdrvr]

I asked the tech more about why its not locking, and there really isn't an answer: THE SPROCKETTS ARE SUPPOSED TO LOCK IN PLACE BY LOCKING PINS DURING START UP UNTIL OIL PRESSURE HAS BUILT UP. WE WILL BE INSTALLING NEW PARTS TO PREVENT THE NOISE ISSUE, DONT KNOW WHY , BUT FORD WILL BE SENDING A NEW PART.

Hey Tye, I also read your posts over at bronco6g.com and just curious have you received your parts yet?

 

[Tye]

Parts just arrived to dealer today. Working on scheduling the repair now.

 

[erjdrvr]

Parts just arrived to dealer today. Working on scheduling the repair now.

Awsome! Noticed that someone from Ford reached out to you on bronco6g.com, were they able to help expedite getting your parts?

 

[Tye]

Awsome! Noticed that someone from Ford reached out to you on bronco6g.com, were they able to help expedite getting your parts?

I dont think they had any role in it, all they did was open a case number and then they would just reach out to me to tell me whats happening after my dealer already told me whats happening .

Looks like this will take a while to fix, dealer needs vehicle for about 2 weeks

 

[erjdrvr]

I dont think they had any role in it, all they did was open a case number and then they would just reach out to me to tell me whats happening after my dealer already told me whats happening .

Looks like this will take a while to fix, dealer needs vehicle for about 2 weeks

Wow, that sounds like a longtime. I think it would be reasonable to ask why they need so much time?

Hopefully your repair is a very isolated supplier QC issue, but would you mind posting your (de-identified) repair invoice once the repair is complete? Having a parts list could be helpful in the unlikely event that others experience the same failure.

Thanks & good luck!

 

[Tye]

I will post service report once its done. Im not sure why such a long time, but i know its full engine out of vehicle.

 

[Tye]

The latest in this saga, vehicle is scheduled for repair, however here is the kicker. They do no not have a loaner vehicle for me for the 2 weeks they need, and thus im being told they do rental cars, however ford only covers $40 day through enterprise. Here in CA, that wont even cover a compact car which means i would have to pay considerably out of pocket for just a compact car. I also have to set the rental up myself, pay for it, then be reimbursed. Anyone know who i can escalate to? I should not have to pay anything for a vehicle while mine is being repaired

 

[TurboS]

The latest in this saga, vehicle is scheduled for repair, however here is the kicker. They do no not have a loaner vehicle for me for the 2 weeks they need, and thus im being told they do rental cars, however ford only covers $40 day through enterprise. Here in CA, that wont even cover a compact car which means i would have to pay considerably out of pocket for just a compact car. I also have to set the rental up myself, pay for it, then be reimbursed. Anyone know who i can escalate to? I should not have to pay anything for a vehicle while mine is being repaired

Only suggestion I have is Ford Performance customer service, they need to do better by you. I would ask for one of the Media test Bronco Raptors for the duration. Ideally I'd go for the Raptor-R Media vehicle. 🤞

 

[TCopp]

Does your insurance cover anything for issues like this?

 

[Tye]

Does your insurance cover anything for issues like this?

Yes, but again, doesn't make sense that I need to cover anything. I have never had issues with getting a loaner vehicle from Audi, BMW, Porsche, or Range Rover. Hoping this isn't the norm with Ford.

 

[ChiliPepper]

Well, I can attest that it is the norm for Jeep in UT. I've been left high and dry by the dealer several times. If it is a short fix, I turn their lobby into an office and take over, that makes them "happy". If it's a couple of days, I make them give me a ride home (courtesy shuttle) and back when the vehicle is done. Makes for an awkward ride sometimes. Other times, it's helpful to get inside scoop on the dealership.